The Employment Law Pod

New sexual harassment laws: essential updates for employers and employees

• Season 1 • Episode 8

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Can new sexual harassment laws reshape your workplace culture? Join Andrew Whiteaker and Helen Goss to break down the critical changes to the new sexual harassment laws in the UK, taking effect on October 26th. Discover how the 'Me Too' movement has led to a mandatory duty for employers to take reasonable steps to prevent sexual harassment in the work place. They'll explore why traditional approaches are no longer sufficient and how tailored strategies can foster a safer, more respectful work environment. 

Finally, they discuss the importance of addressing all harassment incidents, no matter how minor they may seem. Encouraging a culture where employees and witnesses feel safe to report concerns is crucial. 

As they wrap up the episode with the benefits of employees taking annual leave, rest is not just beneficial for health and productivity, but also essential for maintaining a positive workplace culture.

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Andy Whiteaker: 0:03 

Hello and welcome to the Employment Law Pod from Boys Turner. My name's Andy Whittaker, I'm a partner in the Employment team and today I am joined, as ever, by my colleague and fellow partner in the team, Helen Goss. 

Helen Goss: 0:15 

Hi everybody. 

Andy Whiteaker: 0:16 

Hi, and today we are talking about a couple of interesting topics that are pertinent, relevant. They are in the news at the moment and we thought they were worth a chat about. So, Helen, what are we covering? 

Helen Goss: 0:28 

Yes, definitely. Well, we're going to be looking at the new laws coming in in October in relation to sexual harassment in the office and then also the need for senior people to take holiday. 

Andy Whiteaker: 0:42 

Yes, and this is entirely unrelated from the fact that I've just come back from holiday, completely Absolutely so. First subject then sexual harassment. What is changing for us, then? 

Helen Goss: 0:52 

Yeah, well, I think it's quite important to just have a look really at the context in relation to this, because there is an awful lot in the press. Obviously, we've had the Me Too movement which has, I think, had a big impact on people's behaviours and their thought processes and what they find acceptable and unacceptable, and it's really kicked off a formal consultation, but also a lot of debate and discussion amongst everybody about what's happening. 

Andy Whiteaker: 1:22 

And from a professional perspective as well. It's touched us not just in respect of the way that we advise our clients, but also professionally for us. Those sort of changes have made us have to think about how we, for example, use settlement agreements and non-disclosure arrangements and things like that. There's guidance from the Law Society about what you can and can't do in that regard. 

Helen Goss: 1:42 

Yes, I mean. These changes have been going on for several years now, really haven't they? 

Andy Whiteaker: 1:45 

They have yeah. 

Helen Goss: 1:46 

We have or actually I don't know if this has come in because it's from a criminal perspective but there's talk about a new crime of misogyny, hate crime of misogyny. 

Helen Goss: 1:57 

It's being reported very often that there are more and more sexual or violent crimes against women, and I think most recently was in respect of women being attacked on public transport. And then in the news there are lots of cases. I mean we've seen what's been going on at the BBC, with employers dealing with allegations of sexual harassment. There were allegations with the CBI, who admitted publicly that they'd failed to sack toxic sexual predators and lost the confidence of their female staff. I mean that's quite serious really isn't it? 

Andy Whiteaker: 2:35 

Yeah, and it's a tale as old as time, isn't it that we've seen around where you have someone who's a high performer, if you like. You know they meet their sales targets or they they're successful in one aspect of their role and therefore businesses are unwilling to challenge them over unprofessional or inappropriate behaviour, and people get away with it because of their status or that their their success in other fields yes, and I suppose that's what then means that the culture of the business becomes tainted by that, doesn't it? Absolutely. 

Helen Goss: 3:09 

So in the States McDonald's are facing a multimillion dollar lawsuit and that's then said in the UK part of McDonald's that their working environment is toxic and rife with sexual harassment and you hear stories, as I said before, in the BBC and the NHS. 

Helen Goss: 3:31 

So it's quite serious and it can make life for people who are subjected to sexual harassment quite unbearable in that workplace. So it's going to be a mandatory duty on employers to take reasonable steps to prevent sexual harassment of employees in the course of their employment. Now most employers will do training and they will have the appropriate policies and they will take people through the disciplinary process. So there's no suggestion that employers are just doing nothing and allowing this behaviour to carry on. But under the new law or rules that are coming into force on the 26th of October, employers are likely going to have to do more to meet the reasonable steps test set by the new legislation. So I think the reasonable defence test that we've been living with so far has been much narrower. So it's more about this employee and their specific behaviour in the workplace. 

Andy Whiteaker: 4:42 

Yeah, although it's always been quite a difficult test to meet anyway. 

Helen Goss: 4:46 

It has. 

Andy Whiteaker: 4:46 

yeah, we have numerous conversations with clients where we'll explore the possibility of running a statutory defence in respect of? 

Helen Goss: 4:54 

Well, we do nearly always run it but not necessarily with huge success. 

Helen Goss: 4:58 

No, or with much optimism, no no, true, true, but I think this new obligation is much wider. So really, the business is going to have to look at its strategy and its culture on the company wide basis, applying to all employees rather than to specific situations when they're using it as a defence. So I've sort of been thinking about the sorts of steps that a business is going to have to consider taking, and a lot of it will depend on a number of factors, so the size of the business, the resource of the business, the sector it's in and the working environment. 

Andy Whiteaker: 5:41 

Really, yeah, because I think when I first heard about the legislation, and before having really looked into it, the immediate response to it okay, we've got to prevent it. Well, that means some training, doesn't it? We need to provide some training to people. But I guess the answer is that that might be appropriate in some circumstances, but not necessarily all circumstances. 

Helen Goss: 6:01 

No, exactly, and I think the point is that that's not going to be the only thing, just the training, which I do think is going to be really important, but it's not going to be sufficient going forward. So one of the things that lots of commentators are talking about are risk assessments, and I think we're all very familiar with doing risk assessments in relation to health and safety matters. 

Andy Whiteaker: 6:27 

Or people going on maternity leave, for example. 

Helen Goss: 6:29 

Exactly, exactly, and so they're looking now at doing risk assessments to identify key risks with the issue of sexual harassment in mind. 

Andy Whiteaker: 6:40 

So what might those be, for example I don't know what. 

Helen Goss: 6:43 

Do you think they might be, Andy? 

Andy Whiteaker: 6:44 

Well I don't know. I was thinking about this earlier and I was thinking where, where could those key risk areas be? I suppose maybe in social functions, so where? Where the an organisation arranges social activities for its employees, especially where alcohol's involved, because there's a potential for, first of all, just a more casual atmosphere and inhibitions to be loosened, that's regardless of whether or not alcohol is consumed. So I suppose that might be one key area Maybe lone workers or maybe not lone workers but small teams. 

Helen Goss: 7:17 

Well, small teams or teams perhaps, where the demographic is, for example is, for example and I don't want to be stereotypical but perhaps large groups of male workers with very few number of female workers. 

Andy Whiteaker: 7:31 

And I guess seniority issues might be relevant there as well. If you have a very, if you have a high number of, or a large ratio of, senior male employees and then most of the junior employees are younger women, 

Helen Goss: 7:49 

That's a young demographic, yes, so that's definitely a risk area. But of course, the point with risk assessments is it's no good do a risk assessment, put it on the shelf and don't even really look at it. You're going to have to do them fairly regularly and you're going to have to examine them and look at them and see where potentially, action needs to be taken. I think it's also important to train people to do investigations, because it may be and we don't know until the law comes into force that we may have more grievances raised or more disciplinaries, and I think it is important that people know how to do the investigation. So, for example, look properly at the definition of sexual harassment, and I've actually got the definition of sexual harassment written down here, shall I please share it please share it so from a legal perspective. 

Helen Goss: 8:41 

What is sexual harassment? So it's unwanted conduct of a sexual nature which has the purpose or effect of violating a worker's dignity or creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading or offensive environment for that worker. 

Andy Whiteaker: 9:00 

Yeah, and so that's similar to the broad definition of harassment under the Equality Act. Yes, and it has those similar principles in there around, for example purpose or effect. Yes, so your intention is not strictly relevant here. 

Helen Goss: 9:17 

It's how it's the impact of your conduct, rather the intent of your conduct yes, and the new law is in relation to sexual harassment, so not harassment on the grounds of race or disability so this is something specific. 

Helen Goss: 9:32 

It's very specifically in relation. And then training. So training is going to be important. So anti-harassment training, where perhaps part of that training is about explaining power imbalances, because that is very often where sexual harassment can show itself is in those imbalances between a boss of one sex who then perhaps takes advantage of a much junior person in the team. Policy reviews. And again, I think these can't just be tick boxing policies, because most of us probably have got a bullying and harassment policy. I think that we perhaps need to have a look at our ethics or code of conduct policy. And then also behaviour by third parties, so whether that's your supplier, a guest or a customer visitors onto your premises and making it very clear what is and what is not acceptable behaviour in terms of protection for your staff. 

Andy Whiteaker: 10:41 

Yeah, I mean I'm a big one in in trying to make sure that your policies actually live and breathe. It's you know yes we will from time to time be asked by clients to draw our staff handbooks and policies for them, and sometimes they can be enormous, and people want policies to cover absolutely every possible area, and that's fine as far as it goes. But of course, just having some policy sat on a shelf somewhere or stored on your intranet doesn't really take you much further forward. 

Andy Whiteaker: 11:02 

They've actually got to be things that the people, first of all, are aware of and then comply with as well and understand. 

Helen Goss: 11:16 

Yes, and presumably the only way in which you're going to get awareness and compliance is by training to those policies, isn't that? Yeah, absolutely that's the thing. And then, in terms of the complaint’s procedure, do they actually encourage and support people to come forward? Because of course, that is a big issue, not just in the work environment, but just generally. A lot of rape victims never, ever, ever come forward because of the way in which they're treated when they do come forward and make those allegations. 

Andy Whiteaker: 11:38 

Yeah, so there can be issues around confidentiality, so a concern about not wanting other people to know about it and how other people might judge them for having raised the complaint. 

Andy Whiteaker: 11:48 

But then there's also issues around the skill or otherwise of the investigator, which is some a point you've already made yes I mean, if you, if you feel that the investigator is essentially going to tow the company line or not properly investigate or not really understand the nuances of what you're saying and how the law works and operates around this, you might have a lack of faith, frankly, that your, your complaints, can be considered properly. 

Helen Goss: 12:19 

Yes, and that part of that is making sure that the people who are investigating have the appropriate listening skills, isn't it? Yeah, um, and that they're just not jumping to conclusions. So well, what did you do to encourage that behaviour? 

Andy Whiteaker: 12:26 

Yeah, I've recently had a matter that's come to my attention via a client where there's a complaint made about an investigation where an individual the person carrying out the investigation sort of in the first meeting was listening but then trying to put forward solutions and resolutions really early and without actually just listening to what's being said to them and just taking it all in and trying to rush to a resolution without properly airing all of the issues that need to be considered. 

Helen Goss: 12:57 

Because it's difficult and it's embarrassing and it's awkward. So I do understand why, but some training in listening skills, I think, would probably be really good, and then also addressing what might be a culture of silence. 

Andy Whiteaker: 13:07 

Yes. 

Helen Goss: 13:08 

Which is very dangerous to the culture of a whole company, because that's when it can turn toxic, isn't it? 

Andy Whiteaker: 13:16 

Quite so, and I think again, if people don't feel that they're being heard, then they might not. And even if it's, I don't mean to trivialise any sort of incident of harassment at all, but if someone takes the view, well, it wasn't that bad. So I'm not going to raise this, I'm not going to make a fuss about it, because, you know, maybe I'd had a drink and they'd had a drink or whatever, and it just. I don't want to make a big deal out of this. Actually, you don't know what may have happened to others or what might happen to others in the future, and so encouraging people to raise issues, but also encouraging those that witness matters as well to call it out and if they see something inappropriate that's happening, then encouraging people to say, well, actually I've seen this and I don't think this is right. 

Helen Goss: 14:01 

Yes, and part of that is potentially doing an audit of past incidents so that you can understand what has happened. Is there a pattern and what are the lessons learned from those past incidents. How can you deal with these situations better than you have been dealing with them in the past? We all do staff surveys, don't we? But I've seen with some of my clients that they go to quite a lot of expense to do staff surveys but they don't really properly interpret what those survey responses are saying. So I think that a staff survey is a good thing, particularly around the culture of the business. 

Andy Whiteaker: 14:46 

Well, you and I had the privilege last year of judging some awards around employee engagement. 

Andy Whiteaker: 14:52 

Yes, we did In the hospitality sector In the hospitality sector exactly, and the award winners and those that really stood out in respect of the short list that we had to review were those that had conducted effective staff surveys and then really listened and taken on board what their colleagues had said to them and then implemented change around those desires, wants, needs of the staff and you could see some fantastic results that they had obtained around engagement with their staff because they had listened, because they had listened and then actually done something and then reported back on what they'd actually done so I appreciate that's more of a positive thing. 

Andy Whiteaker: 15:32 

It's about making changes and, you know, doing good things rather than a preventative measure, if you like, but I think the principle is still back of a of a bad situation, potentially, potentially but the principle is still the same about. You know, conduct the survey. By all means, make sure it's a meaningful survey. You know, actually put some thought into what you're doing and the questions that you're asking, analyse the responses you receive and then do something no, I, I completely agree. 

Helen Goss: 15:57 

Um, another suggestion, Andy, which fits into that really well actually, is appointing champions through the business, so whether those are champions who people can go and talk to, or EAP, so employee assistance programs where people can talk on a confidential basis to somebody outside of the business, and then monitoring effectiveness, which is exactly what you've just been saying there about the surveys. But actually, seeing where we are today and perhaps a year later, what progress have we made in relation to this? And of course it it's a little bit weird to think that perhaps a measure of success is not less complaints but potentially more complaints. That's a bit of a weird counterintuitive, isn't it? 

Andy Whiteaker: 16:46 

but yeah, you, as I was saying earlier on, you know, you want to know if there are issues, because you want to address them and they that. You know, not every issue that arises is a result of malevolence, yeah, evil, yeah, ill will from particular individuals. It may be carelessness, foolishness, lack of education, stupidity, etc. It's a big one, isn't it? Absolutely? It absolutely is. And also, you know people that maybe have compulsive behaviours as well that need to be addressed and they might need some support too, potentially. So this is about trying to assist everyone really, rather than necessarily being a focus on penalizing miscreants, if you like. It's about trying to create a much more positive atmosphere for everyone in the workplace 

Helen Goss: 17:26 

Yes, no, exactly we and we have already, because you touched on the point of after work events, conferences, away days, just those social events, client events, and just also keeping an eye in relation to those. Now then, the million dollar question or hopefully not a million dollars is what happens if you don't comply or are found wanting in respect of this new mandatory obligation. 

Andy Whiteaker: 17:59 

Yeah, because we've always understood that we are liable potentially for the actions of our employees. So we understand that if an act of sexual harassment is taken place, as are potentially the individuals, absolutely the individual can be, can be personally liable, but we can also be liable for our, for our employees actions, yeah, so what is what is going to change now then? 

Helen Goss: 18:17 

Well, it's really going to be financial. So it's not going to be a freestanding claim. It's going to be a claim that's added on to a sexual harassment claim in the tribunal. 

Andy Whiteaker: 18:29 

So I have been sexually harassed by Mr or Ms X. They are an employee of this organisation. Both the individual that committed the act of harassment and also their employer are responsible for it, so I can bring a claim against both of them. Yes, but in addition to bringing the claim for the harassment itself, I can also bring a separate claim against the employer for failing to take steps to prevent that. Is that right? 

Helen Goss: 18:54 

To take reasonable steps to prevent the sexual harassment in the workplace. Okay and it's a little bit like failing to deal with a grievance for example, that the tribunal can increase compensation by up to 25%. Okay, and, of course, given that discrimination compensation is uncapped, that could potentially be quite a significant uplift. 

Andy Whiteaker: 19:21 

Yeah, absolutely, Depending on the losses that the individual suffered. You're right, it could be quite a substantial uplift. 

Helen Goss: 19:26 

Yeah, exactly. And then there is also the ability for the Equality and Human Rights Commission to take direct enforcement action against employers who breach that mandatory duty. So that's, they may investigate, they may put out an unlawful act, notice, request an injunction which I suspect would have to be very extreme to do that and require draft action plans from the companies how they're going to be remedying these breaches. 

Andy Whiteaker: 20:00 

Another non-legal penalty, if you like, is simply that tribunal judgments are published. 

Helen Goss: 20:08 

Well, name and shame, isn't it Name and shame? 

Andy Whiteaker: 20:09 

So even if you don't have a journalist that's sitting there listening to the tribunal proceedings and reporting on it, the judgment will be published. 

Helen Goss: 20:17 

And so it is out there in the and that's probably going to be the worst effect or punishment for businesses in relation to this, I would suspect. 

Andy Whiteaker: 20:26 

Yeah, reputational damage in respect of your, your customers and clients, suppliers, but also in respect of your employees and potential candidates as well. 

Helen Goss: 20:34 

Yeah, exactly so. This is, I think, quite an important piece of legislation. It comes into force on the 26th of October, so I think there is a bit of work for companies to do between now and then, if they haven't already done that, and think carefully about what they're going to do to improve the culture and every culture is capable of being improved even if they've already done some work, have a look and see. Well, what else do we need to do? 

Helen Goss: 21:03 

Yeah, and what can they do to put themselves in a position where they can say no, we did take those reasonable steps I, I think so and I and I think the training is going to be a major part of that, but not just training to tell people what sexual harassment is, but to look for it, to help people deal with it, to call it out, etc. Etc. 

Andy Whiteaker: 21:27 

And, as ever, of course, we're more than willing and able to help out anyone that might need some assistance with that. 

Helen Goss: 21:33 

Yes, of course we can, so we're going to take a little break now and then we're going to come back and talk about bosses taking holiday. Is that allowed, even? 

Andy Whiteaker: 21:42 

I think it is. 

Helen Goss: 21:43 

OK, 

so welcome back everybody. Now, Andy, come on, then, let's get your justification for that two-week holiday you've just had. 

Andy Whiteaker: 21:54 

Okay, I have been thinking about this and I think I can justify it. Excellent let's hear it. 

Andy Whiteaker: 21:58 

But, more important than justifying it, I'm going to make a positive case, not just for us to be mindful of ensuring our employees take holiday, but also bosses take their holiday as well. 

Andy Whiteaker: 22:11 

I can see how some people might say, Andy, you're just talking about yourself here. This is self-centred, but I do think it is quite an important thing for people to think about, and especially our business owners, because when we talk about holiday, typically with our clients, we're talking to them about the need to ensure that their colleagues are taking their holiday, to keeping a tab on it, making sure that when you get towards the end of a holiday year, you're reaching out to your, your members of staff and encouraging them to take holiday, and I think that is a really legitimate thing that we should be doing. When I came back from annual leave myself, I had an email from the HR team saying Andy, your team members have the following amount of holiday left this year. Please could you get in contact with them. So I think you know that is very valid and a very important thing to do, not least because statistics thrown up by research done on a regular basis demonstrate that we do have a problem with taking our holiday just generally across the board? 

Andy Whiteaker: 23:11 

Do you mean senior people? No, I mean everyone, everybody. Frankly. Um, I think there was some research carried out by Breathe HR um last year I know earlier this year, excuse me and they found that from their research um a third of uh employees in the UK don't take their full holiday allowance. Really Really, yeah, a full third. 

Helen Goss: 23:26 

I find that quite surprising. 

Andy Whiteaker: 23:27 

I know, I know, and not just that, but actually 57% of people who take holiday actually end up working while they're on holiday as well. 

Andy Whiteaker: 23:35 

That I definitely believe, yeah so I think there is genuinely a problem with people taking holiday across the board, and it's something or switching off or switching off, and we know also that the government, is potentially going to intervene in this area. We know that I think there's probably getting on for about 20 different jurisdictions across the world now that have introduced legislation around the right to switch off and the ability to, you know, basically not be involved in work when you're on annual leave or after your hours come to an end on any particular day, and we know that the new government is considering legislation along those lines I think they do. 

Helen Goss: 24:12 

Was it Portugal and France? Australia yes, Ireland has some provisions as well around it. 

Andy Whiteaker: 24:18 

So there are, there are quite a few jurisdictions, and that is that is continuing to grow. So that's definitely the direction of travel. So I think there, you know, there is a requirement to make sure that people are taking their leave generally, because I think people are not, and I think also people are not taking their leave effectively because they are continuing to work. But I think also there is a case to be made to in for business owners to really try and take their holiday as well. 

Andy Whiteaker: 24:48 

Before I went to this summer, I decided I was not taking my laptop. I definitely wasn't taking my laptop with me, but I did take my work mobile. And then I had to decide well, how often am I going to check that? Should I be checking that? Should I look at it in the evening? Should I take it out with me if someone calls me, if I desperately need to answer something? There's something that comes up that I have to be involved in, and I'm sure these are. I don't know how you feel about it, Helen, but I suspect these are agonies that business owners go through across the country, frankly, and probably across the world as well, about whether or not they should try and put themselves in a position that can still be contactable, even when they're on leave. 

Helen Goss: 25:27 

Yeah, I mean, it is a bit of a conundrum, but of course it can have quite bad consequences if you think about it. Because if I'm your number two or someone in your team, I'd be thinking well, he doesn't trust me. Why don't you even trust me to sort stuff out whilst you're away? I'm perfectly capable of doing that, Andy. Or if I was your wife or one of your children, I'd be thinking, gosh, you know dad's working all the hours when, when we're at home and now we're on holiday, and he's still doing it. 

Andy Whiteaker: 25:57 

Yeah, absolutely, so. I can understand the desire to, to want to stay in contact or control, or control as well, but it is an unhealthy position to be in. But again, some research carried out by an insurer last year, in 2023, found that seven in 10 small business owners took less than 20 days holiday a year for a variety of different reasons. You're often feeling well like I can't take that time. It's business critical that I'm here. If I'm not here, who else is going to do the work? Obviously, I have to employ people to do the work. It's going to cost me money. 

Helen Goss: 26:35 

I suppose, if it's a small business, it is slightly more difficult, isn't it? 

Andy Whiteaker: 26:39 

Yeah, absolutely, and then thinking well, you know I am busy at the moment, so I will take some time when it gets less busy, and then, of course, it never gets less busy. Failing to take that time and to properly disconnect is problematic, I think, as a business owner, as a manager, and I think it is really important that you take time to do that. I think you've already touched upon a couple of points, some other things, the key points I wanted to mention. I suppose you've already touched upon a couple of points, some other things, the key points I wanted to mention, I suppose. First, we're setting an example. So if you don't take your holiday, or if you do take your holiday, you're working all the time when you're on holiday, then what example is that setting for your team? You know that bad example. 

Helen Goss: 27:21 

It's a bad example? 

Andy Whiteaker: 27:22 

absolutely, yes, you're committed. Yes, you're in, you know, engaged in the business. Yes, you want it to be successful, but you know you need people to switch off and to walk away from time to time. And if you're unwilling to do that, then that's setting the example for members of your team. 

Helen Goss: 27:39 

That this is how bosses behave. 

Andy Whiteaker: 27:40 

This is how bosses behave, and maybe this is what I have an expectation of you and how you should behave. So I think, first of all, it's really important that managers take time and to set that example, that this is the way that we do things here and this is what we want of our people that they will take their holiday and they will switch off. Another factor a few of our events in the past. We've talked about the importance of sleep. 

Andy Whiteaker: 28:02 

Now, depending upon whether you're commuting or what your particular lifestyle might look like during the working week, you might struggle to get enough sleep. Actually, you know, whether it's you're working late into the night or you're getting up early to commute, or maybe you're working across jurisdictions and you have to speak to people in the west coast of America late into the evening. Whatever the reasons might be, it can be draining, and you might find that you're simply not getting enough sleep during your normal working week. Well, your holiday is a chance to catch up on that and we all know that sleeping is a good thing. It enables your body to recover. It boosts your immune system. Holiday is that opportunity. Not necessarily lazing by the pool Remember if you do put your factor 50 on, etc. But just taking some time to just relax and sleep and refresh is a really important thing to do. Also, it gives you the opportunity to think as well of a normal working week. You've got 101 things going on. 

Helen Goss: 29:04 

There's very little thinking time, isn't there? 

Andy Whiteaker: 29:06 

I've said to you in the past, Helen, that occasionally I feel besieged yes because I've got so much going on. 

Helen Goss: 29:10 

You said that on Monday. 

Andy Whiteaker: 29:11 

I did say that on Monday so many people wanting things of me and things that I have to consider. Well, being on holiday just gives you a time to not have to think about those things but to think, maybe creatively, and think about bigger picture things. There's a really nice quote from Lynn Manuel Miranda, who, as I'm sure you know, is the, the creator of the Hamilton the musical, amongst other things, and as a nice quote from him, saying that you know, the best thing he ever did in his life so far, is Hamilton. 

Andy Whiteaker: 29:41 

And that came to him on holiday because he just had the opportunity, the space to not do anything else and just think and that space gave him that opportunity to think creatively and to come up with this idea. This is something that came to him while he was on holiday. Now, I'm not suggesting that I discovered or came up with the idea for a hit Broadway musical while I was on annual leave this year, but it does give you that opportunity to just think no, I understand. 

Andy Whiteaker: 30:07 

Just think. I think also there's an issue around trust that you have already mentioned. If you are constantly in contact with the office or the business while you're on annual leave, that sets you're not giving your team members. 

Helen Goss: 30:25 

No, what are you telling people that you don't trust them? 

Andy Whiteaker: 30:28 

Yeah, and it's an important thing to recognise that. You know the world is not going to fall down without you. Actually, you might be an important cog, but to be away for a few days or a few weeks, that life goes on. You know people can manage and it's an important thing to show trust to your colleagues that they can take that time and you trust them that when you are away, there's also issues just around your body as well. I've already spoken about the importance of sleep, but just for your body to just rest as well is a super important thing too. 

Andy Whiteaker: 30:58 

So, look, this is my sort of clarion call. I suppose I recognise that we're coming towards perhaps the end of the holiday season for this year, as we're recording it now. But for those people who haven't taken time or still have a balance left, especially if you're in a managerial position, especially if you are an owner or manager of a business, this is my call to arms take some time off. Take some time off and make it easy for other people to take some time off as well within the business, because I think it can seem it can be quite short-termist to take the view that, well, I need to be here. I need to be here, I need to do the work, but actually for those genuine long-term benefits, taking that time off is a really important way of achieving that. 

Helen Goss: 31:40 

I think that's very good advice, Andy. 

Andy Whiteaker: 31:42 

So I think that probably brings us to the end of the podcast for today. So all that remains is for me to thank you as ever, Helen, for your time and your enjoyable company today. 

Helen Goss: 31:52 

Thankss, Andy. It's good to have you back from your holiday and, following your mention of Hamilton, I am looking forward to Boyes Turner of the Musical. 

Andy Whiteaker: 32:00 

Excellent, excellent, watch this space. Well, in addition to that, I'd just like to thank everyone else for listening to the employment law pod today. If you're interested in checking out any more episodes in this series, then please do go to the Boyes Turner website and, in addition, you can follow or subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts. So thanks once again, everyone, and goodbye.