The Employment Law Pod

Employment law in practice: Secondments, sabbaticals, and unpaid leave

• Boyes Turner

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Andrew Whiteaker, and Helen Goss unpack the legal and practical considerations when employees take time away from their regular roles, from temporary secondments to unpaid sabbaticals and career breaks. 

They discuss: 

  • What distinguishes a secondment from a sabbatical or unpaid leave
  • Common pitfalls when employees return from extended absence
  • How to avoid disputes with clear written agreements
  • What happens when a role no longer exists at the end of a secondment

Later in the episode, Andy and Helen delve into the CIPD Health and Wellbeing at Work Survey 2025, which reveals a sharp rise in sickness absence across UK sectors. They explore why absence levels are increasing, particularly the growing impact of mental health, the effects of hybrid and home working on sickness trends, how HR teams can manage absence more effectively through better data, communication, and manager training, and why employee wellbeing strategies need to move beyond box-ticking. 

This episode is packed with practical advice for HR professionals, business leaders, and in-house counsel looking to stay ahead of emerging employment law and people management issues.

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Andrew Whiteaker: 00:04
Hello and welcome to the Employment Law Pod from Boys Turner. My name's Andy Whitaker. I'm a partner in the Employment Team at Boys Turner, and I'm pleased to say that today I'm joined by my colleague and fellow partner in the team, Helen Goss. Hey Helen.

Helen Goss: 00:16
Hello there, everyone.

Andrew Whiteaker: 00:17
And on the Employment Law pod, our regular listeners will know that we like to have a look at interesting things that are in the news, maybe things that we've had to deal with in our caseload over the last few weeks or months, maybe some legislation, some cases, anything that we think might be interesting to have a chat about. So having said all of that, Helen, what are we going to cover today?

Helen Goss: 00:40
Well, we're going to look at secondments, sabbaticals, and unpaid leave because I am finding quite a few questions, particularly about what happens when a sabbatical, or perhaps more accurately, a second, comes to an end.

Andrew Whiteaker: 00:53
Excellent.

Helen Goss: 00:54
So there can be some issues around that. And then you're going to be talking about a recent CIPD survey report, which raises some really interesting points on rising sickness absence.

Andrew Whiteaker: 01:05
That's right. And certainly we're getting lots of queries through at the moment about the management or hopefully successful management of sickness absences. We perceive that there is a rise in these sort of issues, and that's also what the survey results are suggesting to us. But first up, as advertised, we're going to be talking about sabbaticals and unpaid leave. And secondments.

Helen Goss: 01:27
So we're going to look at secondments first. So, well, a second, it's essentially a temporary move an employee to work for a different employer, and usually for a fixed term. Now you've been on two secondments, haven't you, Andy, during your career?

Andrew Whiteaker: 01:42
That's exactly right. So I did one when I was a trainee and then one around 10 years or so ago when I was a senior associate and did some work at a large corporation.

Helen Goss: 01:51
Well, there are a lot of advantages for secondments because it's career development for the individual who goes on the second, it's skill enhancement, both for the individual but also for the company that sets up the secondment.

Andrew Whiteaker: 02:06
That's right. And it's something distinct and separate to a service provision. So sometimes a business might look to outsource a service provision to a third party, and that can potentially give rise to the excitement that is 2P from time to time. But that's not what we're talking about here. This is about an individual maybe being sent for a period of time to do a particular thing while they remain an employee of their original employer.

Helen Goss: 02:31
And of course, it's quite good for networking and developing relationships between the two companies. But your your employment, if you are the second, your employment remains with your original employer.

Andrew Whiteaker: 02:45
Yep.

Helen Goss: 02:45
And you still generally get paid by your original employer, or then there may be some pay jiggery pokery arrangements.

Andrew Whiteaker: 02:54
Some cross-charging or the clients may say, okay, well, we'll pay you for this service. So we'll give you some money to lose those fees.

Helen Goss: 03:03
And then your job is generally held for your return, and you have continuity of service because you continue to be employed by that original company. So we will talk a minute about some of the slightly problematic areas. But then a sabbatical is essentially a period of either paid or unpaid leave of absence from a job, often for study or self-development, sometimes travel, but with you returning to that role. And I've got a client at the moment where they have someone who's on a sabbatical doing a PhD. Yes. And the business has thought, well, if this individual does the PhD, it's going to be amazing for us because she or he is going to return to the business with a whole host of knowledge and expertise that's that's a benefit for us.

Andrew Whiteaker: 03:51
And sometimes it's a it's a length of service privilege as well, isn't it? So some employers will say that, you know, if you've been with us for a certain period of time, if you think that you would benefit from six months travelling or whatever it is that you want to do for that period of time, we we can facilitate that for you.

Helen Goss: 04:07
Yes. No, I suspect I don't really know, but I suspect doing a PhD is is years.

Andrew Whiteaker: 04:12
Yeah.

Helen Goss: 04:13
Whereas if you want to go backpacking around Australia, it might be a couple of months.

Andrew Whiteaker: 04:18
Sure.

Helen Goss: 04:18
So a sabbatical can be any period of time. And of course, it's not a legal right generally, it's a it's a discretionary benefit that some employers will offer. And it's usually based on time served, isn't it, as you said. So the longer you've served, they perhaps think, oh gosh, he or she needs a bit of a break from this. So we'll allow them to have two months where they can go off and do whatever it is that they want to do. And of course, payment is entirely discretionary. So some companies will have a policy where they do pay, but then sometimes it's unpaid.

Andrew Whiteaker: 04:51
Well, that's right. An individual's right to be paid is not dependent upon their continuing employment. No. It's whether or not they are in a position or they're make putting themselves in a position to provide a service. Yes. And if they are not, because they're on the other side of the world travelling around Australia, then clearly they're not, albeit by agreement with the employer, they're not in a position to undertake their duties.

Helen Goss: 05:14
So it's, I mean, I suppose your employment's it continues, but it's suspended almost, isn't it? Whilst you're off doing whatever it is that that you want to do.

Andrew Whiteaker: 05:22
Yeah, so sometimes an employer might say, Well, if you want to go away, you can go and do that. Your employment will end, but we'll look to try and find a role for you when you return. Strictly speaking, that's not a sabbatical. No.

Helen Goss: 05:35
We're we're aligned there, Andy. That would not be a sabbatical. And I'm not sure whether I would trust that a job would be available for me when I got back. So let's have a look now at unpaid leave. And that's often for things like public duties, time off for dependence, carers' leave, parental leave. So very often there is an element of employer discretion, but quite often a statutory right to have unpaid leave.

Andrew Whiteaker: 06:03
So sabbatical is something where there's no real, unless there's something in the contract, there's no right for an individual to take that, but it's something discretionary that an employer can offer should it wish to do so. Whereas unpaid leave is often attached to a specific statutory obligation and right for the employer to allow the individual to take that leave.

Helen Goss: 06:23
Exactly. And a lot of companies will have some policy that does allow some element of payment or perhaps the continuation of benefits. But again, it's all up in the air as to whether there is pay, there is any payment of benefits, even potentially pension. And of course, if this unpaid leave goes on for quite a long period of time, then the employer may not be willing to support this long-term unpaid leave. And then just quickly, there is sometimes a career break. Well, a career break is exactly that. Your employment does end, and then of course, if you want to come back, then it's a matter of approaching the employer and seeing what the employer says as to whether they have a need for whatever it is that you're offering in the business.

Andrew Whiteaker: 07:11
And we have actually seen clients of ours proactively using career breaks. So one that springs to mind knew they had issues around retention of their people because not being based in London, they knew there was a desire for many of their most promising individuals to try their hand in London in their particular industry in which they operated. And so they developed links with organisations in London who could potentially offer those individuals the next step in their career and actively said to those individuals, Well, you know, we know you're going to want to do this. So rather than trying to pretend that you won't or trying to pretend trying to make you stop doing this or prevent you from leaving, you can almost go with our blessing, but with our fingers crossed that once you've scratched that particular itch, then you'll want to come back.

Helen Goss: 07:60
Yeah. And of course, another typical situation of career breaks are parents leaving because they want to look after their children at home, but then after a period of time, perhaps when the child goes to school, are ready to come back and restart their careers. Right. Now then let's have a look at a few curved balls in respect to these various types of leave.

Andrew Whiteaker: 08:22
Okay, so where are we going to start? Are we going to start with succumbments or sabbaticals?

Helen Goss: 08:25
Well, I think wherever we're going to enter into either a succumbent agreement or a sabbatical agreement, we do need to commit it to paper.

Andrew Whiteaker: 08:34
Yeah, this is so often one of the challenges that arise when we have to provide advice to businesses sometime after the sabbatical or the succumbment has started, where there's uncertainty about what rights apply to that individual in terms of their ability to come back to a role or their role. But yeah, it's that the fact that things haven't been committed in writing is can be hugely problematic.

Helen Goss: 08:58
It's got to be set out very clearly, and particularly with a second, because you've got an agreement with the employee, but you've also got an agreement with the company who is receiving the second. So you've got to set out what's the term of the agreement, what's the notice to terminate the agreement, who reports to who, what are the pay and benefits going to be, what about bonuses, what about promotions and pay rises? You know, those are important things because of course, if you forget about the person who's gone on succumbment, and if it's a long-term succumbment, that is a risk, then that person may miss out on a potential promotion or pay rises. How are you going to deal with bad behaviour? So whether that's disciplinaries or grievances. And of course, it's usually for the original employer to deal with appraisals in risk in relation to performance to manage disciplinaries and grievances rather than for the receiving company to deal with them.

Andrew Whiteaker: 10:05
Yeah, and and that, if you think about it logically, should be the case because the the original business is still the employer, so they are responsible for that individual's conduct and they are ultimately answerable to them, but there could still be circumstances where the client, so the the business to whom the individual has been seconded, would want to have the ability to provide feedback or notes, if you like, on what the individual's doing, what they like, what they don't like, what someone could do better, faster, quicker, shorter, whatever.

Helen Goss: 10:35
And I think it's sensible then to set out that if an employee's got an issue, who they report to, and if the company who's received the employee has got an issue, who do they report to? And as I said, the same in respect of performance issues and appraisals. And that's where it is really important that there are there are keeping in touch provisions so that the person who's gone isn't forgotten about or doesn't feel that they've been forgotten about. So there needs to be regular check-ins with the employee and the secondment company. I suspect if someone's gone on a sabbatical, they may just say, bye, see you in three months.

Andrew Whiteaker: 11:15
Yeah, you're less concerned about how effectively they're backpacking around Australia. That's kind of on them, isn't it? Really?

Helen Goss: 11:21
Exactly. Although the the company who has the employee doing a PhD, she does come into the business on a fairly regular basis just to keep in touch, see what's happening, to share details of what she's doing on her PhD study, etc.

Andrew Whiteaker: 11:38
And I guess also if the employer in that scenario, if you're making a financial contribution towards the cost of that PhD or whatever course, you want to know. You'd absolutely want to know you're getting banged for your buck there, don't you? Yeah. So there might be some expectations about what you're doing, how well you're doing, you know, passing the relevant exams, etc.

Helen Goss: 11:58
Yeah, exactly. But of course, where I do see that it sometimes goes a little bit wrong is what is going to happen when the secondment ends.

Andrew Whiteaker: 12:08
Yes.

Helen Goss: 12:08
So if it's a relatively short second or s or sabbatical, then probably the job is still there. There's just been someone filling in. But where there is a much longer succumbment, and sometimes you do see people often seconded to on an international basis, and they may be gone for two, three, four years. What happens when they either come back at the end of the second or they request to come back when the job no longer exists? The job in the UK where they previously worked no longer exists, or someone else has been doing the job for three or four years and they don't need two people doing the same same job. Sometimes the whole team won't even know who this person is anymore because they've been away in some exotic location doing fabulous things into the second company. Life has moved on, or the job has significantly changed and just isn't the same job that they were previously in.

Andrew Whiteaker: 13:09
So as we're wise in the way of employment law, we know that in order to terminate someone's employment, because as you said earlier on, their continuity of employment is protected, there's they still have that protection from unfair dismissal. If we're going to dismiss someone in those circumstances, we need a potentially fair reason to dismiss them. So what does that look like?

Helen Goss: 13:30
It's a redundancy situation.

Andrew Whiteaker: 13:31
Okay.

Helen Goss: 13:32
It's pretty nearly always a redundancy situation. And you know, that's quite stressful. A for the seconde, the individual who's been on secondment, and also potentially the person who is now doing that role, or or others who may be doing a similar or the same role.

Andrew Whiteaker: 13:52
Yes, so I guess if if you've got someone who's doing the similar, a similar or the same role, then you'd need to think about pooling and scoring and whether that's something that we need to do. Or it could be the case that actually that role doesn't exist anymore. There's been reshuffling, and so it doesn't exist, but that wouldn't necessarily mean that you could just declare that individual redundant because you'd have an ob obligation to still look for other roles. You might even have to think about bumping if there were other people doing roles of that individual.

Helen Goss: 14:22
Nobody likes the concept of bumping. But essentially you've got to follow the usual redundancy process. Now, I've seen quite often that the person coming back from secondment understands and realizes that there isn't a role for them.

Andrew Whiteaker: 14:39
Yes.

Helen Goss: 14:40
And perhaps has made alternative arrangements. But I have also seen in secondment agreements that it's recorded in the event there is no suitable role for you on your return, the business will make a X Gratia payment of X to you, and your employment will be terminated for reasons of regression.

Andrew Whiteaker: 15:03
If we're unable to find alternative role for you. And but I think even absence something specific in the in the second agreement that that stipulates that, it seems to me that communication is key, as it so often is. Yeah, managing those expectations from the outset. A sort of vague, oh, I'm sure it'll be fine. No, yeah, no, if you come back, let's we're bound to find something for you. Leave yourself very much a hostage to fortune.

Helen Goss: 15:28
No, absolutely. You've got to be keeping in regular touch with this individual. And I suspect the individual who perhaps has has gone has gone lock, stock, and barrel over to an exotic location, perhaps with his or her family children, they will start that process of trying to understand what is going to happen at the end of this second fairly early.

Andrew Whiteaker: 15:51
And they may also want to start looking for alternative roles within that particular jurisdiction and finding another way to stay where they are, especially if kids are settled in school and that kind of thing.

Helen Goss: 16:00
Yeah, exactly. So you have got to follow the you the usual fair process. You've got to remember that this individual has got continuous service, you've got to look at suitable alternative roles. What does your uh second agreement say about a repatriation or a bringing back or closing of the second agreement? Start the process early, particularly where there's an international element. Now then, I just wanted to have one almost uh a question. What happens if the second is offered a job by the company who received that person to work for them?

Andrew Whiteaker: 16:40
Now, look, if it wasn't bad enough in a recent podcast, you sort of fire me halfway through it. Now you're asking me questions without warning in advance.

Helen Goss: 16:48
I know. Well, you do sometimes see, despite the fact that you will perhaps have an agreement with the the seconding company to say you will not poach our staff who are on secondment with you, that they do do that. And what they're doing is relying on the strength of the relationship or the importance to the second company, that they're not going to actually do anything and hold you to those restrictive covenants, a, the individual or B, the company that the second was with.

Andrew Whiteaker: 17:19
Yes, absolutely. So I mean it may be that the relationship has cooled, and maybe that there's been a parting of the ways as far as any ongoing relationship is concerned, and that might might make the second company more minded to take legal action about it, should it occur. But you're quite right that if it if they're if you've seconded someone to a client, for example.

Helen Goss: 17:39
It's the relationship, isn't it?

Andrew Whiteaker: 17:40
Yeah. So yeah, I think it's a very good idea to have those provisions in a contract to give yourself that ability to potentially prohibit that sort of poaching or to take action in the event that it were to occur. But whether or not you then choose to utilize those provisions in the event of it happening, that's that's a sort of a commercial decision for later on down the line.

Helen Goss: 18:02
No, exactly, exactly. So those are the most important things to consider with secondment in particular, but to a certain extent in relation to sabbatical agreements.

Andrew Whiteaker: 18:13
Basically, think about things early, put it in writing, don't you know, don't put these things off until the agreement until the process is coming to an end.

Helen Goss: 18:21
Yeah, exactly. So welcome back everyone to the employment law pod. So Andy, I'm interested in the CIPD report on increasing sickness absence. Because I think I maybe had thought that with the ability of people more frequently to work from home, that perhaps sickness absence was decreasing because people could work through not feeling very well because they didn't have to get on a train or get in the car to come to work and could just take it slightly easier working from home.

Andrew Whiteaker: 18:55
Well, the impact of working from home we'll come on to in a minute, and it is an interesting one. But the statistics that have come out in the CIPD to give it its full title, the Health and Wellbeing at Work Survey Report from 20 September 2025.

Helen Goss: 19:10
Oh, so it's bang up to date.

Andrew Whiteaker: 19:11
Yeah, suggests that no, we are seeing an increase in sickness absence. Now, obviously, the report needs to come with the usual caveats that it's based on surveys. It's not all-encompassing, it's going to be dependent on who responds to those surveys. It's always going to be a snapshot. But nonetheless, the survey size and the sample size is sufficiently large to be able to rely, I think, on the broad conclusions that have been reached here. And the the key headlines that jump off the page are that first of all, there's 2.8 million economically inactive individuals in the UK as a result of ill health.

Helen Goss: 19:48
So unemployed because they can't work?

Andrew Whiteaker: 19:51
Yes, absolutely.

Helen Goss: 19:52
Okay.

Andrew Whiteaker: 19:53
And that is a cost to the UK economy of about £150 billion a year.

Helen Goss: 19:60
So that's have you told Rachel Reeves?

Andrew Whiteaker: 20:02
No, I I well, again, funny you should mention that because the government is taking further steps to look into this and understand what can be done. But drilling down into the sort of key findings from the report, we have seen an increase in absence levels across all sectors. Back in 2022, the average number of sickness absence days per employee was 5.8. The following year, so 2023, it'd gone up to 7.8, and the figure now sits at 9.4. Gosh. So we are seeing that's significant. Yeah, we are seeing a jump in those in those absence levels. There's a difference between different sectors, but then again, we do have to be slightly cautious about this as a result of sample size, etc. But to give you a flavor of it, within the non-profit sector, so charities, that sort of thing, the absence levels are at 6.5, whereas in the public sector, it's up at 13.3. Gosh. Now, again, we say it's difficult to draw too many conclusions, but it might ask questions as to well, why is it in the public sector that it's such so large? Is it, for example, that there's more generous benefits and therefore people are more minded to take that time? Or is it resourcing issues in the public sector and therefore people under more stress because they don't know they're overworked? Or is it because the processes followed in the public sector are maybe longer and more forgiving than they might be in some private sector organizations, which results in people being off for longer periods of time before action is taken. It's difficult to really understand it, but they are quite stark, stark numbers there.

Helen Goss: 21:43
It's more than double.

Andrew Whiteaker: 21:44
Yes, absolutely. And it will probably be of no surprise either to learn that mental health plays a huge, huge role in this.

Helen Goss: 21:52
Well, we do see so many matters that come across our desk where individuals are suffering from depression, stress, and anxiety.

Andrew Whiteaker: 21:60
Yeah, absolutely. And it's actually the second leading cause for short-term ill health as well. And look, we we're all potentially entitled to opinion on this. You can open any newspaper or go onto the internet and you'll be able to find 101 opinions about the cause of the mental health epidemic and whether people are too sensitive or not as robust as they should be. Yep, that you know, we're we're not political here on this podcast, we're not here to debate those sort of issues. But I guess the the point is that we have to address it. So, regardless of what we think might be the cause of it or whether or not are we gonna deal with it exactly that? Because ill health in the workplace can be hugely problematic. I've already mentioned those numbers of the in terms of the cost of the UK economy, but just in you know, for for any business that's experiencing high levels of of absence, you know, it's going to impact morale because individuals are maybe having to cover for other people's work. It results in them being overworked as well. Productivity, too, people are not there to do their jobs again, other people having to cover, can't necessarily get everything done that they want to, can result in churn. So even the people that are well deciding to move on because they don't feel that they're appreciated or they've got too much to do, or those individuals that are off sick not recovering and therefore having to move on, that then results in recruitment costs. It also results in training costs as well, because you have to keep training up the new people that are coming in. So it is, yeah, it is a yeah a huge cost to business and a challenge for them. We can ask ourselves, and indeed the survey asks or poses the question: does this mean that employees are less healthy than they were before? And do we need to do better to manage people that are suffering from various ailments? And the answer really is yes, I think, to both of those answers. So, yeah, are people less well than they were before? Yes. What is causing that? Well, I suppose to some extent that the survey suggests it could be around the age of individuals because we're all working longer, we're living longer and we're working longer, and people in the workplace that are older are more likely to experience more complicated health issues than if you're younger. Also, costs too. So the the survey found 39% of business said that one of the biggest challenges they face in managing sickness absence is just the costs involved. The costs involved in both putting processes and procedures into pace, but also in maybe recruiting other staff to alleviate burdens and to stop burnouts. So costs are having a real squeeze on businesses' ability to manage successfully.

Helen Goss: 24:41
Well, yeah, it's especially as a lot of businesses are having recruitment freezes. So even if someone goes off on a long-term sickness absence, the the the business may not be able to recruit to cover. So it does place a huge amount of stress and strain on everybody.

Andrew Whiteaker: 24:59
Yeah, absolutely. And you you asked, is Rachel Reeves listening? Yes. Well, I don't know if it's her specifically that was listening, but the government has commenced uh an independent review entitled Keep Britain Working, which is currently going through its various phases of of data collection, etc., at the moment. But it is asking that question, you know, what what's going on here? Why is it that we're seeing so many people? In response to this report. Not in response to this report. This is something that was actually commenced last year. Okay, but it is a recognition that we are such a high cost of the economy, but the level of sickness that we experience in the UK, what can be done about this? And so, for example, one thing they the report might look into is well, what do you do about sick pay? Because there's different views about sick pay. So, for example, if you operate a very generous sick pay policy, then does that mean that people, when they are genuinely unwell, are more minded to take their day off or their days off to recuperate properly and come back to work quicker? Or is it the case that if you give more generous sick pay, does that mean that people are more minded to take it and take it as extra holiday, maybe?

Helen Goss: 26:13
We are cynical.

Andrew Whiteaker: 26:14
Well, I yeah, but but this is these are legitimate questions to be asked. But we're an employment law podcast here. We're trying to provide support to the HR sector and to and to those advising businesses, and so we need to ask ourselves well, you know, what can businesses do and what should businesses be doing? And there is some advice that actually is highlighted in the report as to sort of things that businesses should be doing, and and just picking them up in in no particular order. First of all, analyze your data. So, you know, understand what's going on. It is, but we can have feels about these things, can't we? Well, I don't feel like our sickness levels are high, or I don't feel like there's a connection between sickness absence within the firm. I don't feel like there's the same things happening again and again and again. But actually having an analytical approach to it can be quite shocking. Can be quite shocking, actually, and and in and enlightening as well. So actually looking at what our data looks like is is is important. But that requires good reporting and it requires trust and honesty. So we have to make our employees feel trusted that they can properly tell us what's going on, but that will be dealt in a confidential and and and sensitive manner. It involves actually having proper return-to-work interviews as well, so you gather that data in the first place. But you know, we we need honest communication to be able to understand what's going on. That then means potentially we need to think about training our line managers. Yeah, do our line managers have the skills to be able to do this?

Helen Goss: 27:44
I think that's quite important because that's where sometimes the problems can arise because employees don't feel heard, and the managers are also then finding it difficult to know how far they can inquire or how they should deal with it. So I think that's absolutely essential.

Andrew Whiteaker: 28:02
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, there's some positive figures that come out of the report that I'll just mention briefly now. So, for example, there's some increase in perceptions around the way that organizations treat well-being, for example. So back in 2020, 44% of respondent organizations said they had a well-being strategy. That's now gone up to 57%. So that's a good thing. 74% of respondents felt that well-being was on managers' agenda, which was up from 61% five years ago. And 64% of respondent organizations do take steps to actively try and reduce stress within the workplace. But interestingly, only 50% of those respondents think that those steps are actually working and that they're effective.

Helen Goss: 28:50
You see, that's interesting, isn't it? That they're taking steps, but they they lack confidence that they're actually going to help or work.

Andrew Whiteaker: 28:58
And tying back to what I was saying a moment ago, only 29% of the respondent organizations train their managers in how to deal with how to support mental health, for example. Yes. So, you know, we can have strategies in place, but if we're not necessarily training our people in how to implement them and how to use them best, then perhaps we're not going to get as good a results from those strategies as we might do otherwise. Other suggestions that come from the report as well, listening to employees around benefits, because we can have a perception as to what is useful. So we can put these well-being hours in place or meditation hours, or whatever it might be, we we have in our mind's eye what our employees might like, but actually they might be completely useless, and employees might not take the benefit of them. There might be stats that we can see to understand whether they're being used, but there might not be. And frankly, we should be asking people what they actually want.

Helen Goss: 29:53
Data again.

Andrew Whiteaker: 29:54
Exactly, data again. So, yeah, we we gather this information and we can make good decisions based on that. Also, think. Thinking about the full employee life cycle, what are the stages of life look like for those individuals while they're with you? What are the particular pinch points or challenges that they might face? Whether it's around maternity or paternity, whether it might be caring for elderly relatives, whether it might be about their own health, whether it might be any number of issues that you might encompass during your life. What can an employer do to try and assist their colleagues or their employees through those various stages and make sure that the offering that you're providing is in line with what the employees actually need?

Helen Goss: 30:36
Yes, and I mean it does make sense for all the reasons that you talked about earlier on. But it is a big ask for busy HR teams, isn't it?

Andrew Whiteaker: 30:44
It it is absolutely. But the the answer to that, or the counter answer to that, is that, well, look at the money that we're spending.

Helen Goss: 30:51
Can you afford not to?

Andrew Whiteaker: 30:52
Can you afford not to? Yes, we recognise 39% of those respondents are saying cost is getting in the way of us doing this, but the problem is what is it costing you if you don't do this?

Helen Goss: 31:02
So it is Or how can you achieve the same outcome, but perhaps with a lesser cost?

Andrew Whiteaker: 31:07
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And thinking creatively. But that then goes back to waste and making sure that you're actually doing the right things rather than just doing stuff for the sake of doing it, actually doing things that help and support your colleagues. You did ask about working from home. So before before we wrap this up, working from home, to start off with, 36% of respondent businesses felt that they had seen a reduction in the amount of sickness absence as a result where they are able to offer flex for working and working from home. Whereas 16% said they thought the amount of absence had gone up. So, but that there seems to be a larger proportion that feel that it's got better rather than worse. Very similar results in terms of productivity as well. And that's a whole nother conversation to have about productivity and where it works in some sectors and not others, yes, all that kind of good stuff. Um, but one really interesting thing is that 35% of respondents, so pretty similar to the number that were saying they were seeing a reduction in illness, were saying that they are seeing an increase in presenteism. And so what I mean by that is individuals who are unwell but still working because they're at home.

Helen Goss: 32:20
Yes, which is the point I made at the very beginning.

Andrew Whiteaker: 32:22
Absolutely. So you might say, well, people maybe healthier and they're they're they're better off and they they feel more, you know, they're not getting worn out or worn down by their commute and having to stand on a crowded train for two hours every day or whatever it might be. But the flip side of it is that when you have your colleagues working, you want them to be working and you want them to be engaged and focused. And you don't want them working while they're sick. And whereas if an individual was thinking about, well, I have to come into the office today and I really I'm not, I don't feel up to that. That's not something that I want to do, whether it's the commute or the focus or the other people or whatever it is. I'm just I'm not well. I would ordinarily just take the day off. If I can sit at my computer in my pajamas with a hot water bottle or whatever it might be, and I can struggle through the day, then maybe I'll I'll I'll do that. But do we want the employee doing it?

Helen Goss: 33:15
I don't I don't know. It's difficult, isn't it? Because there may not then be the drop in productivity necessarily, but then are you really helping a person's well-being?

Andrew Whiteaker: 33:26
Yeah, and you hear it a lot, don't you, from individuals who say, Well, I've got a bit of a cough today or I'm a bunged up with cold, and I don't want to come in and spread all my germs around. I'm perfectly fine to work, but I just don't want to cough and sneeze while everybody. And you think, okay, well, that that makes sense. That makes sense, but what you don't want is people who are genuinely under the weather, struggling through and trying to work because number one, they're probably unlikely to do a particularly great job while they're unwell, and trying to do work when they should be rested. Which is a conundrum, isn't it? Just might make that period of absence longer. Yes. So it's so it's interesting that, yeah, those businesses are saying we're thinking there's less illness because people are working from home where they can, but we do feel there's more and more people working when they shouldn't be. So there's lots to chew over from this report. What I would recommend actually is for people to get a copy of it.

Helen Goss: 34:16
And read it.

Andrew Whiteaker: 34:16
So what we're gonna do is we're gonna add a link to where you can access the report in the notes for this episode. So I would encourage everyone, if you're in HR, click on that link, have a read. There's some really good ideas and suggestions in there. And it also goes into a deeper dive into some of those statistics and some of the things that might be driving some of the answers than we have time to do in this in this short podcast today.

Helen Goss: 34:40
No, great idea, Andy.

Andrew Whiteaker: 34:41
Okay, so I think that probably just wraps things up for today. All that remains to be done is first of all to thank you, Helen, for joining me.

Helen Goss: 34:50
Thank you, Andy.

Andrew Whiteaker: 34:50
And to thank everyone for listening to the Employment Law Pod. If you're interested in checking out more of our episodes in this series, then please do go to the Boys Center website. Or alternatively, you can follow or subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts. Thanks again and goodbye.