Hybrid working & financial wellness for employees

In this episode, Andy Whiteaker and Helen Goss, talk about the versatile world of hybrid working and financial wellness in the workplace. Together they reveal the makings of a successful hybrid model, where the tug-of-war between remote freedom and office synergy is at its peak. The episode highlights four key areas of concern: communication, connection, creativity, and culture. 

The episode also delves into the topic of financial wellness. They're shining a spotlight on the candid trend of 'loud budgeting' that's sweeping across TikTok, reshaping how millennials and Gen Z navigate financial discussions. With a firm grasp on these concepts, they discuss how forward-thinking employers are not just acknowledging the financial strains of inflation but are actively assisting through innovative resources, emergency funds, and transparent talks about the delicate subject of secondary employment. 

Tune in for these enlightening insights and more, as the business landscape continues to evolve, these considerations will remain paramount in fostering a resilient and engaged workforce.

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Chapters

• 0:27 Challenges of Hybrid Working
• 15:42 Employee Engagement
• 18:23 Loud Budgeting
• 21:11 Encouraging Open and Honest Money Conversations

Transcript

 Andy WhiteakerHost00:03 

Hello and welcome to the Employment Law Pod from Boyce Turner. My name's Andy Whiteaker, I'm a partner in the Employment Team and I'm very pleased to once again be joined today by my colleague and fellow partner, Helen Goss. 

Helen GossHost00:14 

Hi everyone. 

Andy WhiteakerHost00:15 

And, as before, we're going to be talking about things that we have seen in the news over the last couple of weeks that have piqued our interest, that are employment law related. So, Helen, what are we going to be talking about today, then? 

Helen GossHost00:27 

Well, I'm going to be looking at the issue of hybrid working and you are going to be looking at the concept of financial wellness and the cost of living burden for employers and employees. 

Andy WhiteakerHost00:41 

That's right, yes, so why don't we start off with hybrid working then? 

Helen GossHost00:46 

Yes, absolutely. Well, hybrid working is one of those things that either provokes huge hoorays and yays or big boos, depending on your particular perspective, but there's no doubt that the world of work was completely and utterly turned on its head when we went into the pandemic and COVID, and for actually quite a long time, and that's then really where this concept of hybrid working became very popular and frequently talked about. There's no doubt that a lot of businesses have completely and utterly embraced hybrid working. Some, even some clients that we know of, have got rid of their offices altogether. 

Andy WhiteakerHost01:28 

Yeah, absolutely yeah. 

Helen GossHost01:30 

And then, of course, there are other businesses, particularly big global businesses where teams are spread throughout the world, have been operating on a remote hybrid basis for a very long time, and well before COVID. 

Andy WhiteakerHost01:41 

Yeah, absolutely. I was seconded to a business for a period of time, pre pandemic, and the HR director that I engaged with every day, and various times every day, was based in the Netherlands and in Amsterdam. 

Helen GossHost01:54 

Exactly so. A lot of businesses are sort of wondering what's the fuss about, because that's the way that they've been operating for quite a long time. But then there are other businesses who have been mandating that people return to the office, sometimes for two or three days a week, but quite often on a full time basis. And you remember there was a bit of a ferrari not that long ago when one of the politicians claimed that civil servants who were working from home were lazy civil servants. 

Andy WhiteakerHost02:23 

Yes, that'd be news to my wife, who works for the civil service and also works from home. Yes, I don't think she'd agree with that categorisation. But there you go Well. 

Helen GossHost02:30 

It's a bit of an odd concept, but it is one that some businesses do have. So it seems to me that there is quite a lot of tension in some businesses between what employers want and what employees want. But of course everybody's got their eye on that issue of retention of staff, so keeping the talent they've got in the business, and then attraction of new staff. So it's that constant battle and tension that you see. I'll be talking about contracts a bit later, but what I'm seeing and I don't know if you're seeing it the same, Andy is there are a lot more flexible working requests. 

Andy WhiteakerHost03:10 

Yeah, I think that is the case, but I think also because so many businesses are adopting flexible working almost as the default position, then there's also less demand for people to make an application to ask to work flexibly because employers are accommodating it without the necessity of a request to be made. Where we're seeing maybe more requests is where businesses are having a more directive approach around people returning to the workplace. 

Helen GossHost03:37 

Exactly where they're mandating that people must attend the office and the flexible worker requests are generally about working from home rather than perhaps reduced or different hours. And, of course, where those requests are coming from women who perhaps have caring responsibilities, people with disabilities or maternity returners or adoption returners, then there is a risk for the business. With an overall policy that everybody must work from the office and those risks are constructive, unfair dismissal if someone feels they have no choice but to resign as a consequence of a refusal, or indirect discrimination because it is mostly women or people with caring responsibilities who are seeking to work from home with the flexible working requests. 

Andy WhiteakerHost04:31 

And that's over and above the statutory claim that an individual might have if they were to argue that the employer hasn't properly considered a flexible working request? 

Helen GossHost04:40 

Absolutely, and I think we covered that in our first podcast, didn't we? The new rules in respect of flexible working requests. Well, I think that hybrid working is here to stay for the majority of businesses, so I've tried to narrow down the four main challenges. And you know how when you read a magazine or read an article, there's always like four b's or six f's everyone loves a bit of alliteration. 

05:11 

Well, I've got four c's Andy good stuff, excellent, yes so we're going to look at communication, connection, creativity and culture, which I think is probably the the big one. I know that's a big thing from your perspective, isn't it? 

Andy WhiteakerHost05:25 

yeah, absolutely, but I'm glad you, they are genuinely all four C's. 

Helen GossHost05:29 

Yes, exactly, I had to work quite hard to get that, but we got there. So the first one. Then communication, and of course that is a huge thing, because every business that I've ever worked in or with struggles with communication, whether that's formal communication or informal communication. And the thing that everybody keeps raising now the conversations around the water cooler. Do we even have water coolers anymore? 

Andy WhiteakerHost05:56 

Let's say ZipTap or something like that, although that's branded, isn't it? We know what we're talking about. 

Helen GossHost06:00 

The conversation around the ZipT, zip tap and certainly with communications. Technology does help us, doesn't it in in remote meetings, but only really when the technology works. 

Andy WhiteakerHost06:14 

We also have whatsapp and instant messaging, which does help that communication when people are in different locations but I think even with stable communication platforms and I think most businesses have got things that now work for them it's still not quite the same. Is it interacting in that way? 

Helen GossHost06:32 

No, because if you think about a team meeting, so some people will actually physically be there and then others will be on the screen because they're working remotely from home on those days. So, yes, that is a hybrid meeting, but it does sometimes feel a little bit awkward, and I think that the person who's chairing the meeting really needs to keep an eye open that they're actually speaking or allowing everybody to speak, and that the meeting isn't taken over by the people who are physically present. Now, I know that when you're chairing our team meetings, you do make quite a thing of making sure that everybody gets an opportunity to speak. 

Andy WhiteakerHost07:14 

That's kind of you for saying so, but I think you're right, though, that it does bring a new set of skills that people need to learn in how they engage with people in those circumstances. 

Helen GossHost07:23 

Exactly so. We've got to make sure that the technology works and also that people understand the etiquette of just because you're physically present doesn't mean you get to dominate the meeting, and that we also have to be conscious and try harder to make sure that people who are working remotely are not feeling left out, or when we know that they're not keen to speak, or making sure that they have a space in which they can speak. 

Andy WhiteakerHost07:50 

Yes, absolutely, I agree yeah. 

Helen GossHost07:52 

Then connections is one that I always worry about because we've got to really be mindful that, for example, when people join the business, so in the onboarding process with junior employees or just teams who are working together but not always in the same place, that everybody feels part of what's happening. So there is a risk that you might be sitting somewhere and think I don't even know who that person is, because you've not been introduced to that person, whether that's formally through the various communication angles, or because you've never actually seen them before, because they or you are not in the office that often. So it's again making sure that people aren't left out, especially those who don't push themselves forward. The other thing that I often worry about is the connections, not just internally but externally, so people making their relationships that will benefit them and others and their relationships with clients and suppliers going forward, because it's an essential part of business that people do forge those relationships and it is much more difficult when they're not actually going out and meeting people. 

Andy WhiteakerHost09:12 

I think another thing around connections as well, and I apologise, this doesn't begin with a C, so sorry, but I often think about the concept of stickiness. Yes, and how pre-COVID, when you had teams that were working closely together and were connected in that way, they just knew each other better. They just built those connections in a way which are more difficult to build and if people are working remotely, and this is really a retention point I suppose, and there are many reasons a person might leave a business It might be for career progression or money or whatever it might be. But where people feel more connected and more sticky to their colleagues and their teams, they have those stronger ties that bind, then that may represent another reason to keep that person in the business, why they might wish to stay, because they feel more connected than they might do if they're simply not around as much. They don't have those connections that they might otherwise have with their colleagues. 

Helen GossHost10:09 

Yeah, I think that's right, and I don't know whether you've had any issue with tribal behaviour as well, because I know that I've had a couple of grievances that I've looked at on behalf of clients, where perhaps women or people in ethnic minorities have felt left out because they're not potentially physically present and so there becomes a tribal behaviour amongst those who are actually present and in the office. So they form a group of people who then are acting in a very excluding fashion towards people who aren't physically present and they regard themselves as perhaps being a little bit superior, because we're here, we're actually progressing our careers, whereas you're just hiding at home. 

Andy WhiteakerHost11:00 

Yeah, it's an inclusivity point that goes beyond just equality, diversity and inclusivity, if you like it goes beyond a discrimination point into just more generally speaking does everyone feel properly included and able to contribute and able to raise their voice and have their voice heard? 

Helen GossHost11:16 

Yeah, exactly. Well, we'll look at that when we get to culture. But creativity and innovation is the other one that I often see as to why flexible working requests are refused when people have put in a request to work from home. So the business is quite keen on this idea of collective creativity and the hive mind. So the unexpected conversations around the zip tap, so those conversations that aren't scheduled or timetabled, and those sparks of creativity which perhaps don't happen if you're not together, physically together, or if you are working home alone much of the time, can you have those creative sparks when it's just you? I'm not sure I've got an answer to that. I don't know if you've got a view? 

Andy WhiteakerHost12:10 

No and I think yeah, there will be many people that say, well, I work better in a, in a completely darkened room with no noise around me, and that enables me to really concentrate and I get my best ideas in those circumstances. I'm sure there are people who that works for them. But equally I'm sure there are many people who feel the need to be able to bounce off, not physically but, you know, have those ideas, be able to spark off other people and be in a, in a sort of creative environment with others to speak to and to discuss ideas with. 

Helen GossHost12:38 

Yeah, and can a Teams call be spontaneous and ignite that creativity? So I would probably say possibly yes, because I'm okay with Teams calls, in that I'm quite confident speaking, but then somebody who isn't quite so confident isn't perhaps going to enjoy. I mean, we've seen people who just sit in a tiny little space in the corner of a team's call because they don't like to look at themselves on the screen, people who just don't like speaking in a wider environment. So perhaps those people are missing out. So the business has got to make sure that they create a space for people who are perhaps quieter than others to share their creative ideas or to make sure that on those days when people are in the office, that that's when meetings are held, where that creativity can run free and I guess that that moves us on to culture, doesn't it? 

13:37 

Culture. Now that's the big one, I know that's the one that you get quite excited about. So when people are not spending a lot of time together, can you generate that good feeling about the business? It's a really difficult question and I think most businesses think that perhaps their culture has suffered when they haven't all been together at least some of the time. So how can a business differentiate itself in the search for talent and also in terms of its business relationships with suppliers or clients? 

14:18 

But certainly, engagement with all of your employees is just so important because they've all been through such a hard time. They're continuing to go through a hard time, which you're going to talk about in a while. So, businesses really do have to think about how they're going to engage with their employees, and I think in the past everybody used to have an employee of the month scheme and that seemed to be the biggest point of engagement, but I think that probably doesn't really cut it anymore. And, Andy, you and I we've been judges on the engagement category for the Springboard Awards. Springboard is a charity in the leisure and hospitality sector and every year they have an awards ceremony where different categories are judged and different people put in their papers to seek to win, and we've had the privilege of looking at a lot of people who've put in papers in respect of employee engagement and I have to say it's been a bit mind-blowing in an entirely good way, hasn't it? 

Andy WhiteakerHost15:24 

it's quite inspirational, to be honest with you. There's been some really fantastic ideas, initiatives and, as you say, creativity that we've seen from many different businesses trying to take a real positive step in the direction of engaging with their employees and giving them the best possible experience. 

Helen GossHost15:42 

No, exactly. So I mean they have most definitely moved on from employee of the month and just the odd social engagement. They're looking at portals so that everybody can properly hear and understand communications, road shows where people are physically going around all the sites and having question and answer sessions, surveys there seems to be a huge reliance on engagement surveys and then the important point is not just hearing what people are not happy about, but actually then going back with well, we've done that, we've listened, and so now this is how we're proposing to deal with that situation, and then repeating the survey a few months later to see if their engagement has gone up, focusing on development and training programs, coaching and mentoring that seems now to be a very common way of developing engagement and of course, then wellness and wellbeing initiatives, which would include financial wellbeing as well. So I just wanted to touch, before I hand over to you, Andy, the legal position in respect of contracts and employers requiring people to attend the office some of the time or all of the time, and I think that it's about going back to your contract. 

17:03 

Essentially, now, most contracts will have the place of workers being the base for an employee to work from. On that basis, it's probably going to be possible for an employer to require their employees to come back into the office, and that's obviously going to be subject to reasonable adjustments or successful flexible working requests. It might not result in a happy workforce, but I think that if the business is determined that people must work in the office and that their contract backs that up, then I think that the business is determined that people must work in the office and that their contract backs that up then I think I think that the business is entitled to do that. 

Andy WhiteakerHost17:42 

Ultimately, it's up to every business to decide what works for it, not just in terms of productivity, but also in terms of culture and how they want to build and where they see the business progressing to in the future. Everyone will come up with a slightly different answer to that because they have different demands. They're at different stages of the cycle of that business perhaps as well. 

Helen GossHost18:11 

But it's identifying what you think works for you, rather than just taking an off-the-peg solution, and making sure that you communicate that clearly to your people so they understand what it is that you're doing and why it is that you're doing it as well, and you can hopefully take them on the journey with you. Yeah exactly. 

Andy WhiteakerHost18:15 

Thanks, Helen. That's been really really interesting, as always. 

Helen GossHost18:23 

Right um. So, Andy, we've had a little break, so tell us about loud budgeting. 

Andy WhiteakerHost18:29 

Yes, we're recording this just before Easter, so that means it's the end of the tax year just about to come up, and for many businesses it means it's the end of the financial year, which then also means that there's been potentially some budgeting exercises. 

Helen GossHost18:42 

Painful, aren't? they Andy. 

Andy WhiteakerHost18:43 

They are indeed, and businesses are deciding what the shape of their organisation looks like next year. 

18:49 

We've seen in the news that inflation is starting to come down, but of course that simply means that prices are going up less fast than they were before. It doesn't mean prices are coming down, and it's not always possible for employers to pass on or businesses to pass on those additional costs to their clients or customers. It means that employers and employees are being squeezed. It is the case that employees are seeing their cost of living go up, but businesses are as well. Their cost of productions are going up, so both employers and employees are being squeezed and therefore it's not always possible for employers to make pay awards that keep up with inflation. And that's been the case for the last couple of years, and it means that for many individuals, many employees, they will have seen a real term pay cut over the last couple of years. In fact, there's probably very few people out there that have managed to keep pace with inflation in terms of their pay awards over the last couple of years. 

Helen GossHost19:42 

Yes, and it's causing quite a lot of financial hardship for some people isn't it? 

Andy WhiteakerHost19:52 

That's right. As I said, it's not always possible for employers to offer larger pay rises, nor is it possible always to offer additional hours, overtime, that kind of thing to help bridge the gap. So what can businesses do about this? What should they be doing? Well, the last couple of weeks, I've become aware of a trend on TikTok. 

Helen GossHost20:05 

That's not like you, Andy. 

Andy WhiteakerHost20:06 

Andy. No, I know, but I'm keeping my finger on the pulse and there was also an article about it in the Big Issue this week as well and this is the trend of loud budgeting. Now I'm already in my mind's eye seeing my teenage daughter's eyes rolling at the prospect of me, as a man in my mid-40s, trying to describe a TikTok trend. But I'm going to do my best me as a man in my mid-40s trying to describe a TikTok trend, but I'm going to do my best. And what it is - is essentially being more open and honest about financial constraints and it's encouraging people to take a more proactive attitude towards engaging with their peers and their friends about what they can and what they can't do. 

20:48 

Now, this is just a trend on TikTok, isn't it? I mean, how much attention do we need to pay of this? Well, there was a Forbes survey that was completed recently that found that 80% of millennials and GenZeders take financial advice from TikTok. Would you believe it? So people are influenced about what they read here and they take an impression of the way that they should be acting. And the loud part of it is really important because it is about having those open and honest conversations and it is encouraging people to say where, for example, there's an expensive birthday lunch that's being organised, or a dinner, or whatever it might be, having the confidence to be able to say to your friends, actually, my payday isn't until the end of next week or whenever it might be. Can we do something a bit cheaper, maybe, or can we explore a different option? 

Helen GossHost21:40 

So do you mean taking the shame out of not being able to afford to do something? 

Andy WhiteakerHost21:45 

It's exactly that. 

21:46 

It's exactly that, that, because what we're seeing is that so few people I think there was another survey that I saw where one third of Brits apparently are too uncomfortable to chat about money People really find it difficult to be honest about the situations they find themselves in and what they can and can't do. So, as I said, this loudness is important and it's not about necessarily missing out. So it's not about giving up on things. So you know you, you will hear people talk about well, the reason that gen zedders can't buy their own homes is because they're drinking too much coffee. Well, I think that rather oversimplifies the challenges faced around house prices and average salaries. 

22:25 

But it's not about necessarily giving up your expensive coffees. It's saying well, actually I have finite resources and I want to keep those nice things, I want to have those coffees. So what does that mean actually for my budgeting and what I can and can't afford to do? And I need to have a sensible conversation about that and really take a positive and proactive approach to what I can and can't do. So what can we learn from this from an employment perspective and as employers? Well, I think it is about encouraging that honesty and encouraging people to feel free to talk about the challenges that they face and to be able to look to others for support and to both take and provide advice. Over the last year or so, we've seen quite a few employers lead the way with appointing a cost of living champion, for example, so that focal point for someone to go and be able to have those conversations with, to share their position, to discuss options, to discuss. 

Helen GossHost23:22 

So this is the financial well-being aspect of engagement, really isn't it? 

Andy WhiteakerHost23:27 

Yeah, it's exactly that, and employers may be arranging a financial well-being lunch or a forum or somewhere where people can feel psychologically safe to have those conversations and to not be judged and to be honest about what they're doing and what their experiences are. A lot of that loud budgeting trend, if you like, on TikTok, is about being able to say, well, this is what I've experienced, so this is what's happened to me, these are the mistakes that maybe I've made that I've learned from and that I'm not going to make again, and that sharing that experience enables other people to learn to learn from those mistakes, but then also potentially to pass on advice about things that's worked them instead. So that's something that employers can replicate, and it's something that employers can replicate at a relatively low cost. As I said, budgets are squeezed. It's not always possible to spend a lot of money on new initiatives or drives or offerings, but this is something that's pretty low cost that you can do, that employees might feel a real benefit from in being able to engage in those sort of discussions. 

Helen GossHost24:29 

What about other benefits? Are you seeing, do you think, a change in the types of benefits that are available to employees? 

Andy WhiteakerHost24:38 

Well, I think so. I think so Many businesses are thinking about that and they're thinking okay, well, what can we provide? So is there a way, for example, for us to set up signposting services for where individuals can receive support or advice on managing their budgets better? Can, for example, an employer provide access to a financial advisor? Is that something that individuals might feel the benefit of? 

25:03 

Do you engage with your employees about putting in place strategies for budgeting as well, Perhaps encouraging individuals to think about the importance of emergency fund? You know, if the car breaks down, for example, and it's expensive to fix and if you don't fix it you can't travel to work, for example, having a bit of money set aside to enable you to do that, to get the car back on the road again is a really important thing to do. So just talking about those little rainy day things and just managing your finances in the best way that you can, so that you avoid those sort of problems, if they arise, and you're able to militate the damage of them. Another aspect that we've seen increasingly arise, I think, is the issues around second jobs. 

Helen GossHost25:48 

Oh, now then, that's a big subject and a slightly touchy one as well, isn't it? 

Andy WhiteakerHost25:53 

It is. 

Helen GossHost25:53 

A contractual issue as well. 

Andy WhiteakerHost25:55 

It can be a contractual issue. So whether or not this is a particular concern will depend upon the nature of your business. So for many organisations they will have provisions in their contracts which expressly state, for example you can't go and work for a competitive organisation while you're engaged by us. 

Helen GossHost26:13 

Which makes sense, really, doesn't it? 

Andy WhiteakerHost26:14 

But also there might be provisions as well which say and you can't do anything during our working hours. So we don't want people doing side hustles and moonlighting in other roles when they're supposed to be working for us, and that can be a concern if, for example, people are working in a hybrid environment. How closely could or should you be monitoring what individuals are doing when they are working from home, and is it possible that they are doing something else on the side that you are unaware of and almost sort of doing two jobs at the same time? You hear urban myths about this from time to time, but, as with all of these things, they tend to have a kernel of truth to them, and I'm sure there are although I haven't dealt with any anecdotally that have come across my desk. I'm sure there are circumstances where individuals have been doing this and that would be in breach of contractual provisions that require you to spend your full time attention. 

27:07 

To dedicate isn't it Exactly that's the terminology During your working hours, to working on your job. But even outside of that you might have, for example, individuals who work a day job but then want to work an evening job as well to earn extra money. 

Helen GossHost27:23 

Or perhaps need to work a second job. 

Andy WhiteakerHost27:24 

Exactly that. Yes, quite so. So where does an employer sit in those sort of circumstances? Is that something that you could or should care about? For example, if it's being done outside of working hours, then what rights have you got to say to the individual that you have an issue with that, for example, that you have an issue with that, for example? Well, normally again, contracts might include a provision which says you shouldn't take on any employment which might affect your ability to do our work for us and to undertake your contractual duties, and I suppose there may be circumstances where someone is working nights as well as days, for example. 

Helen GossHost28:03 

So they're not performing because they're overtired. 

Andy WhiteakerHost28:05 

Exactly that can impact on productivity and and all of those you know sort of issues that might be of concern to an employer. 

28:13 

but over and above that, there's also issues about working time oh yeah, because you know there are restrictions and rules which I'm not going to go into in the great detail of, but there are restrictions and rules on how many hours of work an individual should be working. So, over and above your actual, just general well-being concerns for your employee and also ensuring they're doing their job to their best of ability that you pay them for, there are also, maybe, issues around working in excess of the you know the allowed working time limits too, so so there's issues around second jobs. 

28:46 

Employees want to be encouraging individuals to be honest about this again this is this creating this psychological safety and encouraging people to be frank and open with their managers. If there's something that they have to do, then we want them to tell us about it so that we understand. We can check first of all, whether or not we're happy with that and whether that is something that we either need to give our consent to or not. But even if it's something that actually they're perfectly entitled to do, we still want to just make sure that the employees are okay as well, and we want to make sure that. 

Helen GossHost29:16 

So their well-being, their well-being. We need to be mindful of their well-being. 

Andy WhiteakerHost29:20 

Exactly that, exactly that. So, again, we want people to be honest so that we can manage that situation. And then just a few other thoughts about cost of living. Some businesses are able to offer early pay rises, for example they've. 

Helen GossHost29:32 

Bring them forward, you bring them forward exactly. 

Andy WhiteakerHost29:35 

So I know it's something you've been looking at with a couple of clients. Also, cost of living bonuses as well. You know it might not be possible to pay an ongoing increased salary, but it might be possible to offer some sort of bonus or some sort of contribution in recognition of those rising costs. And then, finally, you mentioned before about benefits. Many employees are very good about assessing their benefits on a regular basis, but others aren't, and you might have a very generous benefits package, but that might have been suitable 10 years ago, or even pre-pandemic, or even maybe immediately post-pandemic. 

Helen GossHost30:08 

Is it fit for purpose really? 

Andy WhiteakerHost30:10 

Exactly that, and some of the things that we offer, some of the things that we do, some of the things that we make available to our employees are they actually meeting their needs right now? And is there something else that they might much prefer? It might be a tradition within the organization to spend a lot of money on big parties, big social events, big occasions, taking people away on trips, that sort of thing. Do employees actually want that? 

30:36 

you know, would they much, much prefer actually free gym membership, because that saves them some money, or free breakfast being provided for them when they come in in the morning, or whatever it might be. That goes again to the points you were making about communication yes, and about asking or a survey. Yeah, exactly about asking your employees what they want, listening and then actually providing them absolutely what they want. 

Helen GossHost31:03 

Thanks, Andy. Really interesting subjects and in fact I was just thinking that perhaps the issue of psychological safety might be something we could talk about at our next podcast, because I'm seeing that so much at the moment, particularly in grievances. 

Andy WhiteakerHost31:17 

I'm writing that down in my notebook as we speak. 

Helen GossHost31:22 

Excellent, So thank you so much for listening everybody. We release regular episodes on employment themes. Just subscribe or follow the podcast and you'll be able to listen to them as soon as they're available. So thanks again for listening and we'll catch up again soon.